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Date: 20.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Food to avoid

Hi, after realising that eating oranges has really caused me to have very swollen and inflamed hands (plus strawberries and tomatoes) I was wondering if anyone else has found that a certain food causes them problems.

I ate an orange every day for two weeks, only because at minute they are sooooo juicy, my hands which were okay before this really got terrible, I stopped for a couple of days and couldn't believe the difference

I am going to try to get a list together for myself of foods to possibly avoid. I realise this has probably been covered before so I am sorry for bringing it up again and I know I can research but I would rather get info from people who actually know what they are talking about.

Please don't say chocolate:(
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Date: 20.03.2014
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

I remember reading somewhere that the 3 c's were bad for RA, coffee, cheese and sorry Julie, chocolate. Oranges definitely make me sore too, although cherries are meant to be good for inflammation, or so I was told.
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Date: 20.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

oh Rhona, I have just bought myself a big bag of giant chocolate buttons for tomorrow night - I will have to eat them now or else they will go off!!!!!

I also heard cherries are good for inflammation so I bought some cherry jam, I don't think I am doing things properly do you:(
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Date: 20.03.2014
From: Colin W

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Julie , I am the same on orange, strawberries and tomatoes , along with apples & grapes , if only found something that helps RA

like you need to try loads of chocs to see if that makes it worse or better
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Date: 20.03.2014
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

They do say a little of what you fancy does you good Julie, so enjoy the chocolate buttons and I suppose if you eat them all and get sore then as Colin says you will then know. I have always enjoyed a glass of wine but lately I have felt worse after that too, so wondering if it's possible it's bad for RA too, I suppose if I had to drink too much of it then I would know for sure. lol.
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

You may be interested to look at the comments and stories on these websites from an article by Chris Kresser (loads of positive stuff on his main website) - 100's of people with the same stories self diagnosed - feeling much better and there doctors dont believe them!

http://chriskresser.com/50-shades-of-gluten-intolerance

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-kresser/gluten-intolerance_b_2964812.html

This one is relevant -

"Two years ago I had an illness that lasted 6 weeks- headache with extreme, debilitating fatigue- that doctors could not diagnose (or treat; even Vicodan did nothing for my headaches) . I got better, but in the months that followed started experiencing joint pain and random rashes. I eventually went on a mostly Paleo diet with no nuts (I discovered they were causing the rashes) and most of my symptoms disappeared. I do eat rice and I need plenty of it and dried fruit to keep things regular. I came back negative for celiac's but I can very much tell when I've experience accidental exposure...joint pain and severe intestinal distress. "

This one made me laugh about curly hair!

"I have hypothyroidism (Hashimoto's) and had read about the benefits of going gluten-free a few years ago. I tried it with no great results. Then I read about paleo and tried giving up ALL grains and legumes. That really did the trick. No more joint pain, swelling, hives, etc. My body temperature came back to near normal. My hair started to grow back. My hair is quite curly and had gotten much straighter since developing the hypothyroidism. After going paleo, it came back super curly again. I had my first good thyroid blood test results, too. Despite increasing levels of prescribed thyroid hormone replacement, my labs had never been in the optimal range.

After experimenting a bit, I realized that I react strongly to corn as well as gluten grains. When I had originally given up gluten, I had started eating more corn. I find I can have a bit of white rice or legumes here and there with no noticeable effect, but even a little soy sauce (traditionally made with wheat) will bring joint pain and GI issues in short order. I do feel best when I stick to a diet with no grains or legumes and rather limited dairy.

I would encourage anyone with any autoimmune condition to try going paleo for 30 days. What do you have to lose? "
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi, I have looked up what a paleo diet is all about, but to me it looks like it includes everything you can think of, nothing seems to be out of bounds - unless I have read it wrong.

The other articles Sean suggested are interesting but very hard to understand, I need to read again to understand more about gluten, I don't suffer celiacs or any stomach problems (at the moment!)

Colin that was interesting about apples and grapes, as I said since leaving out oranges my hands have been loads better, yesterday I was eating grapes and last night had an apple, this morning woke up and they are quite painful again. Maybe pears and bananas will be better, I worry about not eating fruit as its good for us but then again it does harm aswell.

Chocolate Buttons here I come:)Going to eat them all, then not have chocolate for a few days to see how things go, gosh that will be hard for me I am a real chocoholic.

I don't think stress is helping, we have just put our house on the market with a view to getting a bungalow and its all the viewings we are doing which is stressing me out keeping house like a show house is not easy, luckily my hubby does a lot of the preparation but I still get stressed if everything is not perfect.
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Julie

Paleo cuts out lots of stuff and is basically -

- No grains
- Emphasis on good cuts of meat, broths from bones
- Good fats like olive oil, coconut oil and saturated fats
- No legumes but lots of salad and veggies
- Low sugar
- Reduce fruit
- Reduce or no dairy especially from cows milk

- Some eat rice and a some eat potatoes - but often they substitute sweet potatoes.

So as you say plenty of meal choices as long as you dont mind cooking!
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

thanks Sean for that, the paleo (what does that mean?) is quite a good diet to follow really, like you say if you don't mind cooking - which I don't.

Im not a big meat eater, only really like chicken, sometimes if we eat out I will have roast beef (only because I cant cook it properly myself at home) I do like the idea of broths though. When you look at it properly its the ideal way to eat isn't it. No grains does that mean bread or cereal, I wouldn't know what to have for breakfast if it does!!
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Suz

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

I am sero positive R.A sufferer and I feel foods with WHEAT, GLUTEN, COWS MILK EVEN SUGAR foods including glucose fructose and Monosodium Glut e'g artificial preservatives and sugar do not help my joints one bit my joints feel more inflamed and swollen.

I think our digestion could be involved with R.A, AS THEY SAY HALF OF THE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS IN THE GUT
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

wonder why they never suggest diets at appointments, well mine haven't anyway don't know about anybody else.

Suz I don't know what sero positive RA is I often read about it on forum, all I was ever told was that I had RA, never given any test results just told that I had it.

Suz do you find it difficult to find things to eat which don't upset you? I find it hard enough to eat as it is, I don't have a very good appetite (think I am just full of tablets)
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Suz

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Julie at first I found things had to eat but having R.A FOR NEARLY 18YRS NOW, I have seemed to control my eating habits. At first I didn't enjoy the change I had to make and lost quite lot of weight as well after putting much on when taking ibuprofen every night. I Just had to change my taste buds to different things like wheat and gluten free bread, rice milk or soya milk ten years ago this stuff didn't taste very nice but now they do great versions at Tesco's and sainsbury's and can't really tell much difference to normal bread or even missing milk. I do try cheat now and again with some dairy chocs and munch on wheat based biscuits but then feel it isn't worth it cos it makes me feel a twinge of pain and soreness. I don't drink orange juice either or eat oranges or even red, green, bell peppers.

I don't know why R.A has this unusual link with some of these foods. Wish the professionals would find out :(
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Suz

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

What differences are there between people that are seropositive and seronegative?


As well as seropositive patients having a greater likelihood of developing more serious disease, they are also more likely to have extra-articular complications (such as nodules and vasculitis - see individual NRAS articles for more information) than those who are seronegative
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Julie

Paleo Diet is the trade mark of a scientist called Loren Cordain - he is seems to be well respected in the medical community hence the traction his "views" are getting. Here is his study on RA from 2000 before paleo diet - he did the research then saw the opportunity.

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN83_03%2FS0007114500000271a.pdf&code=f428523541dba5320e7fa9d615b280fd

His ideas arent that new though and there are huge overlaps between Paleo and other diet options - ones that interest me are -

- SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) made popular by a remarkable lady called Elaine Gottschall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecpa3jGR5Fo

- FODMAPS (Fructose Malabsorbtion) which I think if your having problems with some fruits or bell peppers! might be worth looking at. Great article here at PaleoMom

http://www.thepaleomom.com/2012/08/modifying-paleo-for-fodmap-intolerance.html

http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/topic/138274-printable-fodmap-diet-chart-for-your-convenience/

- Paleo

http://thepaleodiet.com/success-story-curing-rheumatoid-arthritis-with-the-paleo-diet/

BTW. I dont believe in absolute cures but do think there are remissions and huge improvements!

For many,including me there will be other factors not just diet - bacterial balance and stress have an impact too. Existing damage to our guts done by years of bad diet or strong meds also take a while to overcome.

Although not completely paleo - my breakfast is tough

These are my only breakfast options

- Kallo Rice - with some Almond Milk
- Sheeps milk yoghurt from Waitrose - with a dash of honey and Omega Seed mix and a little fruit
- A Nakd Bar Raw Fruit bar.
- Eggs with a slice of ham and some bluberries or pineapple
- English cooked breakfast when I have time at the weekends - Eggs, bacon, mushrooms, grilled tomato - sometimes a waffle (Birds Eye are now gluten free)

I've been baking banana bread tea-cakes for the last few weeks. 12 teacakes No refined sugar!

2 very ripe bananas
1 egg
3 squirts of honey
90 grams of rice flour Doves Farm - Sainsbury's 1/2 teaspoon of mixed spice
1/2 teaspoon gluten free baking powder

A small amount of other fruit - what ever suits - I add a few currants.

Whisk until a batter - then 10 minutes at 180 as individual "cakes". They are better cold - or cold then toasted like a hot cross bun - lots of real butter!

Here is a picture of my creation with blueberries from today

http://s739.photobucket.com/user/seanpurdy2/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/fcc8f0edb625a453eec5fe6e84c81cfe_zpsf5ce5287.jpg.html
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Date: 21.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Thanks Sean, Im gonna do a lot of reading tomorrow! I like the sound of your teacakes, couldn't view the photo though, probably me doing something wrong, but can imagine how nice they would be, nice for breakfast I would think. Might give them a go over weekend. Thanks for the other info Sean I find it quite interesting.

Suz - cutting out milk wouldn't be a problem I only have tiny drop in my tea, even on cereal I only have hot water. Like I said biscuits and choc might be a bit harder but I am going to try -after tomorrow nights feast that is:)) Going to have a look at seronegative and positive and see what it all means.

Gosh I am going to be busy over weekend, still better than doing housework.
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Date: 22.03.2014
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

I make my own gluten free blueberry muffins for breakfast which I have with a soya cappuccino. I do however need to replace the sugar with perhaps honey.

I'll have a look for those birds eye waffles.
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

blueberry muffins sound delicious aswell Linda.

I don't seem to be very good at cutting out sugar, must do though because over past couple of weeks I have had one filling fall out and the tooth crumble (had root canal surgery years ago) and yesterday one of my bottom back teeth broke in half so now I have to pluck up courage to go and get them sorted.

I really really don't want to go but I must, havent been for good few years but I always went from being a child and always always brush my teeth cant go anywhere without doing it.

I think this is probably happening because of all the medication. I really don't want to loose my teeth so this is another reason for me looking at diet. Actually don't know if I should contact rheumy before going to get them sorted, will have to read up past threads for advice.
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Julie - Not sure if your aware but there are huge links to oral / teeth health and RA.

This study explains how bacteria in the gums and plaque induce the creation of cittrulinated proteins -

http://arthritis-research.com/content/12/5/218

This blog here discusses the rise of dental issues from excessive (non sugar) carbohydrate consumption / wheat

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/09/it-starts-in-the-mouth/

The recent WHO report on sugar intake was very badly reported in the media as there intention was to highlight hidden sugar released from complex carbs and some fruit also!
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

First book I read on arthritis after diagnosis Julie, said that people with arthritis lost all their teeth within the first ten years.

Despite having arthritis for years, my teeth are better than my husbands and although I've lost a couple at the back due to receding gums, I've lost none to decay. However, when we go for check ups I seem have more build up of plaque on my teeth than my husband does even though I clean my teeth more often and regular than he does.
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Sean are you a scientist??? Just read the links and there are interesting comments made regarding bacteria. Makes me think that probably its bacteria in our bodies that cause RA, lets face it we have bacteria everywhere in our bodies, all the time, but what happens if we have an ongoing bacterial infection that we don't know about, something like for example some tooth decay, or some gut bacteria like a fungal infection. These could all be the start of our immune systems being overworked and then going wrong. I have often had a high crp level but was surprised because I didn't have any swelling or pain anywhere ( places where I first suffered like hands knees etc.)it could have been an underlying infection somewhere, in my case probably a broken tooth that I have had for years and not done anything about!!!

I noticed in the study it did mention treating inflammation with antibiotics which to me stands to reason, why don't they put us all on antibiotics for a few weeks to see how things go. I know when I am on antibiotics I don't have any swellings in my hands or pain or redness.

Linda - Hi, I would have died if I had heard that about teeth when I was diagnosed, which was only last February. Good to hear your teeth are okay it gives me some hope I had visions of going to dentist (when I pluck up courage to ring) and him saying I need them all out.

Did you have any problems having your back teeth out, just wondered if you healed okay. I don't mind if they take mine out just as long as I can be put to sleep, don't care what they do as long as I don't know whats happening.
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Julie

I'm not a scientist but started reading about the role of bacteria in my arthritis about 15 to 20 years ago. Dr Ebringer studied a bacteria called Klebsiella for its role in AS (and how it is fed by starchy foods!)

Professor Ebringer believes that RA is caused or continued by bacteria from the urinary tract called Proteus Mirabilis - he describes a sub-clinical asymptomatic infection, so no cystitis. PsA is linked to Streptococcus. Proteus is a highly motile bacteria and can easily migrate from the urinary tract to other parts of the intestines. It's quite recent -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3290812/

In the last few years there have also been clear studies that prove that wheat (a protein called gliadin) effects more than just celiacs - as it opens wide the gut lining (tight junctions - aka as TJ) to bacteria - It's not much of a stretch then to see how wheat can be a cause / entry point of these bacteria (or other undigested food proteins)! This paper describes its potential role in ALL autoimmune disease.

http://physrev.physiology.org/content/91/1/151

My opinion is that if the gut is damaged from NSAID or Methotrexate then no gluten free diet is going to work in a hurry. In fact memory B cells in the immune system can last for a long time once "taught" by T cells - so even with a repaired gut it can take a long time to feel any benefit of diet change or antibiotics.

That's why the drugs they use are used - because they normally work more quickly. I'm not anti drugs but believe more should done by mainstream docs on possible causes first or during treatment.

This excellent article from a Multiple Sclerosis website describes then how the process of immune confusion happens - it also mentions RA and the work of Professor Ebringer. It's really worth a read and is not technical -

http://www.direct-ms.org/molecularmimicry.html
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Date: 23.03.2014
From: Suz

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

That great Sean you've explained quite a lot than my consultant has and it does all make sense.

On the last thread I meant to say I avoid drinking cows milk.

Which zinc would you recommend to regulate the immune system, citrate, gluconate or oxide Sean?

Many thanks for the info
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Date: 24.03.2014
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

I had no problems with having teeth out Julie because they were loose anyway. I was given an injection in the gum. Because I get such a build up of plaque, I have them cleaned regularly.

Plaque is a harbour for bacteria and I believe this bacteria can also be the cause heart attacks.

It's not such a leap of faith for me to believe that infection can cause autoimmune diseases. I think genes also play a part, which is why AI diseases tend to run in families.
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Date: 24.03.2014
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Suz

I take a Zinc Citrate supplement from Biocare as prescribed by a nutritionalist who has retired now. They are about £10 for 180 tablets.

I take between 0 to 4 a day depending on how I feel. But I was on 6 a day 20 years ago.

I dont trust all vitamins / mineral supplement companies - and only have Biocare, NutriWest and sometime Solgar for my Manganese because the Nutriwest one had Wheatgerm in.
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Date: 24.03.2014
From: Julie

Subject: Re: Food to avoid

Hi Linda, I booked appointment I go tomorrow at 10 past 11, I am absolutely terrified to the point where I am having fast heart beats. I am so frightened in case he says he cant take them out for me because of something to do with RA. I don't think I will be able to go back if he says he can rebuild my teeth or if he says there is lots of work to be done, he might want to redo my fillings, and if he says he needs to do another root canal I will just cry.

I don't know why I am as frightened as this but all I know is that I don't want tomorrow to come(Yet I know I need to go show him whats happened)

I really hope this stress doesn't make me flare up as my hands have been quite good since stopping the oranges. My stomach is turning as I type this talking about tomorrow - oh Gosh I am such a baby, at my age I should be ashamed I am 63!!!
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