Date: 14.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Amoxicillin
Hi, has anybody found that being on penicillin helps. I have a chest infection and g.p. put me on amoxicillin for a week. After 2nd day I cant believe how normal I feel, I have no red knuckles and they are't swollen or painful. In fact I don't have pain anywhere I feel like I did before diagnosed with RA. I haven't injected mtx today (last time I was told not to while on antibiotics) but I have still taken sulpha and plaquenil and my lower dose of steroids. Just wondered if once course if finished will I be in agony again. Or is that my immune system is so busy with the infection its leaving my joints alone!!! Don't see rheumy for another week so cant ask her but I am hoping that I still feel like this when I do go. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Date: 14.02.2014
From: Colin W
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Julie , I had something similar last october when given a penicillin because of a leg infection , CRP went from 26 to 3.9 & back to 29 striaght afterwards , I mentioned this to my Rheumy nurse & was told if it was that simple they would have all of us on antibiotics , here in the UK you will have a battle with them to try any antibiotic treatmant & may need to go private only thing for myself in hospital for last three weeks & with given tons of antobiotics by drip it helped but did not get rid of my RA
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Date: 14.02.2014
From: Suz
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Julie I had amoxicillin for 7 days for a skin infection and I have to say my joints did feel somewhat better even one of my quite badly damaged elbows functioned quite well with flexibility, overall my R.A was much calmer. I appreciate what colin is saying but I do think there is a bacterial connection with our joints and the immune system malfunction hence the joint damage that occurs while immune system goes over drive to clean out whatever it does. The thing is even the antibiotics can't fully get rid of the R.A that's just a mystery the professionals need to work out on finding out why?? in my opinion.
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Date: 14.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
thanks Colin, I did read your last post and saw you were back home again - I am glad its not fun being in hospital, I hope you are feeling a lot better. I only posted because I found it strange to feel like this with the antibiotics. I know there are people who have them as treatment but like you say it is a fight to get it and I know it wont be offered to me. So I just have to wait for the pain to come back once Im off the antibiotics - oh well nice while it lasts. Take care Colin and don't push yourself too hard keep resting.
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Date: 14.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Suz, thanks for replying. Once your course had finished did your RA come back really bad? I know what you mean about antibiotics not getting rid of RA, if it was that easy we would all be cured - if only!! I also think there is a bacterial connection, I have suffered for years with sinus problems which also affected my chest sometimes, I think I had the infection when I was diagnosed with RA, which was only last February, but I was put straight onto Mtx and I knew I had some kind of infection, probably that's why my CRP didn't drop it just got higher and higher then I had to go onto mtx injections because they said I wasn't absorbing properly. I took a sputum sample into my g.p. and asked him to have it tested, it came back that I had a staphylococcus infection and the hospital said I needed clarithromycin. This I have had twice through the year. My RA symptoms were not that bad in comparison to what I have read on here but my rheumy kept saying that I had it bad, I disagree still. Its a very confusing illness, but I am just enjoying being painfree for a while
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Date: 15.02.2014
From: Suz
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Julie After I finished the antibiotics the R.A didn't come back really bad Thank god! but I could feel the difference while I was on the antibiotics my joints felt lighter and less inflamed specially my hands but after stopping the antibiotics I could feel few aches and hotness on areas which are already affected with my R.A My R.A started when I had some sort of urine infection and was given a very new type of antibiotics at that time which is like 20 yrs ago and after taking that antibiotic my wrists started hurting and then the process of R.A began tiredness and fatigue and pain. I think that Antibiotic I had 20yrs ago weakened my gut and immune system and made one thing trigger another not all antibiotics are safe and that was for sure not safe because it was banned after 2 years of release due so many serious side effects. The best antibiotics are the ones which are tested effective against the bacteria. Mind you I had MTX but could not take it long so worried about the side effects and I started getting a slight rash on my belly also for some reason I felt my hands were worser. Anyway I HOPE your R.A does not flare up or get worse after the antibiotics are stopped, enjoy the pain free time! Your right by the way it is confusing disease very complex to deal with.
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Date: 15.02.2014
From: bsk
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
I'm currently on a 6 week course of antibiotics - erythromycin - for an eye condition. It hasn't made any difference to my RA, in fact, I have flared whilst on it. However, I am sero -ve so don't know if that makes a difference.
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Date: 16.02.2014
From: Sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Bsk - it might be that erythromycin effects different bacteria - I read that amoxicillin can kill proteus mirabilis
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Date: 16.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
thanks everybody, come to the conclusion that 'you get ill if they give you medication and you get ill if they dont' we cant win can we. Suz that was wonderful it not coming back as bad I hope Im the same. I hate mtx, I hate injecting the stuff it turns my stomach. Well Im just going to continue enjoying being pain free for the next couple of days, but my infection hasn't gone so probably will have to go back to g.p. - I knew the antibiotics he was prescribing me wouldnt get rid of it, this happened twice last year, a week on amoxicillin which didn't work, then sputum test, week for tests to come back, then go on the antibiotics recommended by the hospital (amoxicillin isn't one of them!) I Shouldn't grumble I still remember so well my bad days in the beginning I really thought my time had come to meet my maker, but here I am a year on and still complaining:) I am sooooo glad I aren't in the awful flooded areas down south, those poor people, I really don't know how anybody with a bad illness could cope, I really feel for them, our area was badly flooded few years ago, we missed it we were in Switzerland, came home to find my daughter and family had moved in, just glad we could put them up. Fingers crossed it wont come back. take care everybody and keep smiling.
Julie xx
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Paul
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
The antibiotics used to treat RA are Minocin and Doxcycline. The treatment is long and slow, maybe taking up to a year or longer to achieve remission. For more information, if you are interested take a look at the " Roadback " website.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: bsk
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
That rules me out then, I'm allergic to Doxycycline.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Paul
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
there other antibiotics you can take if you are allergic but those two are the main two used, Minocin being the preferred.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
thanks for that Paul I will look it up, but I know that this wont be an option although it does sound easier to take pills than to inject every week, don't know why it is getting to me injecting Ive done it now for a few months but I cringe now at the thought of Friday:(
I'll see what rheumy as to say next week.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Colin W
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Julie , I was the same about injecting Methotrexate & prety much endded up that could not do it & went back on tablets personaly I would like to try minocycline but take it with Methotrexate as I know its been the best of the drugs I tried , sulfasalazine is a combination drug which is a antibiotic but after 18 years its still dont work that well and not sure minocycline would work any better
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: rhona
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
It is good to hear that some are getting relief from the antibiotic therapy but is it any safer taking antibiotics long term than it is taking the traditional treatments we get prescribed? I would like to know the main reason why people decide on this treatment.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Colin I don't know why I have changed towards injecting maybe its something that happens. To be honest I am quite happy taking mtx, plaquenil and sulphasalazine I have never really suffered any side effects (I remember panicking when it was first offered to me!!) and my symptoms are I think tolerable, but I think maybe its because all the time there is some inflammation it is doing damage - I not a doctor so all I can do is take what they think is best for me. I always thought that taking an antibiotic long term made your body used to it and it didn't work anymore. Hope you are feeling better now your at home. Rhona - hope you are keeping okay. I would imagine people go onto antibiotic therapy maybe because they have a long term infection which is hard to shift and that the infection causes inflammation which in turn causes the RA. I am sure somebody will know the answer but I am still learning about it all:(
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: rhona
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Thanks Julie, I'm doing ok. I am on the same combination of drugs as yourself but also get rituximab infusions. What you say makes sense. I wonder then if they just take the antibiotics for a certain length of time if it is to treat RA as I also think antibiotics lose their effect after a while. It is all so confusing and it's good to hear different opinions and what works for different people, at least it gives us some options. x
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Colin W
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Julie , I think they are going to change methotrexare to pens to inject which will make it so easy , even I could do that , check with your rheumy nurse , was told it will be spring this year in my time in hospital I had all my rheumy drugs taken away apart from oruvail gel & when it ran out voltarol gel , both cause me asthma but since I been home I tried devil's claw anti inflammatory
gel & for some unknown reason it works alot better than the other prescription gels & tempted to try devil's claw capsules the flucloxacillin I had last year was 500mg for two weeks , I had same drug for a week the year before but did not notice any difference , 18 years on I am as confussed about RA as I was when it started , anyway tomorrow only 10 steriods tablets
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Suz
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Don't think any antibiotics is the treatment for R.A but I feel there could be a link between an infection/bacteria that causes SERO POSITIVE R.A or maybe even sero negative and the Antibiotic given has to be specific to the bacteria or foreign organism causing R.A. I feel this way cos I had urine infection at start of my R.A about 20 yrs ago no sorry actually it was 18yrs ago and was given wrong type of antibiotic as my urine sample was not checked for specific bacteria.
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Date: 17.02.2014
From: Colin W
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Suz , you are not the only one saying your RA started after a urine infection , myself developed occupational asthma & think my RA is linked with the immune system being damaged but no way to prove it Your immune system uses a huge army of defender cells - different types of white blood cell. If an infection begins to take hold, your body fights back with an even more powerful defence of T- and B-cells. They give you acquired immunity, so that the same germ can never make you as ill again. These are the same cells that are attacking our joints in RA , its our immune system that is damaged ,
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Linda
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Alternatively, our immune systems could be doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is why it's logical to use antibiotics.
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Colin - I agree with the trigger causes and also think that there is also another imbalance to address in order to help the immune system recognise self rather that invader. Zinc is low or depleted in nearly all autoimmune diseases as the fight by the body to obtain tolerance uses its reserves - it also uses vitamin A and D also low in many people with conditions like ours. I rarely get lots if pain but over Christmas had gut inflammation accompanied by lower back and hip pain. It lasted about 3 days - whereas in the past it would have built up and spread up my back and neck and last weeks or months. My zinc is really helping me. I think your 100% right on b-cells being a memory of the invader - and they are apparently supposed to be retained by the body for years. I've read that in RA they have been programmed to attack an amino acid sequence QKRAA shared by some bacteria which many with RA have in there body. I read an interesting idea last year that taking rituximab could give people an opportunity to reset - but the trouble is that the imbalances that led to the inititial t-cell responses and later b-cell remain - diet / gut bacteria imbalance / mineral levels. Here's an excellent article on zinc and t-cell / b-cells - http://www.immunityageing.com/content/6/1/9
Btw - t-cells are programmed in the thymus which is hugely impacted by modern Franken-wheat - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8399111/
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Paul
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
When on antibiotic therapy the dosage is tiny, less than you would be prescribed if you suffered from acne, so yes it is safer. Professor Ebringer (look on you tube)thinks these forms of arthritis are due to infection, and another a microbiologist Dr Wheldon who worked at Bedford hospital has cured his wife of MS with antibiotics,you can also watch this on you tube, under cure for MS.Must be something in it.
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Paul - What Ebringer has studied is one cause of the trigger - using the model of a single infectious agent for RA (proteus mirabilis) and AS (klebsiella). Last year I followed the advise of some of the posters on here and via Arthritis Research reached out to one there sponsored researchers in Dundee - who told me that he agreed with Ebringers research on bacteria / gut link but thought that multiple bacteria were involved - so for RA the focus for decades has been poly?gingivitis, mycobacterium, e coli and proteus. For AS it has been Yersina as well as Klebsiella. For me a key point is that other people have these bacteria in there gut and fragments do probably do leak in to the blood stream - yet they can process the debris better - or dont let as much debris in through the gut in the first place. Regarding gut damage - If a dams broken then we dont want to get too hung up on what fish are swimming through the cracks! Protein debris can be dietary as well as bacterial.
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Colin W
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Sean , they tried to to reset the B-cell in study of about 20 people about 10 years ago but cant find links of how it worked , most people with RA should be taking a D vitamin supplement & may add zinc & vitamin A as well . myself would not recomment any Anti-Tnf drugs because of the problems I had with them & dont think they are safe , the only biologics I think that are worth considering are tocilizumab , abatacept & rituximab but the first two are very new , its a shame in the UK they are happy to give out the anti-tnf drugs costing £10K a year but not let us try a few antibiotics costing a few pence having spent most this year in hospital they done every test they could to find a infection in myself but there was none & think the way I fould flucloxacillin helping is more to do with the gut and how it pretty much kills all the bacteria in it & think the problems I had since could be linked with taking the antobiotic , with Steriods you can get a massive flare after coming off them & think flucloxacillin may have done the same but was told to inject my anti-tnf 48 hours after coming off the antibiotics lol been trying to understand the first link , it is realy interesting but bit over my head but I am going to try a Zinc supplement before they get change to use one of thier expensive drugs
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Colin - I'm am bit lost on many of these studies but the conclusion section on the zinc study is a bit easier than some :) I take zinc citrate from a make online called Biocare which has no starch - it's not too expensive I think I paid £9 for 180 tablets. They do a smaller 90 one too! I truly hope you can find something that helps you. I'll probably be criticised by repeating myself on this but there is too much research out there (link below from 1989!) showing elevated gliadin anti-bodies - so to not cut out gluten products at least as a trial - so to take zinc and still eat foods that we are likely reacting might be like putting a draft excluder in an open door way. What interested me about this study was ths the non RA control group also had significant antibodies to wheat gliadin http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2612082/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1860040/
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
I wish I had you guys in my pocket when I go see my rheumy you are so knowledgeable. The info is way over my head but I was interested in the zinc comments and am going to try taking, I do take Vit D and iron but adding zinc might be worthwhile. My antibiotics finished yesterday and today my hands are feeling stiffer BUT I have to admit I am a 'grannie xboxer' and maybe was on it too long yesterday so going to keep off xbox for a while to see if hands feel better. I am going to look at some of the links suggested instead. Colin how do you feel taking 10 steroids? How long will you be on that dose for?
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Julie :) Xbox - I have to force my son to come off of his most nights or Minecraft on his PC! Be careful with iron - it reduces zinc and they compete for absorption. Iron and zinc taken together helps iron levels but can still decrease zinc levels. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/3/787.full http://jn.nutrition.org/content/116/6/927.full.pdf For a while I stopped taking my zinc with calcium for a similar reason - but have been lazy for the last few weeks and take one Magnesium/Calcium , 1 Manganese, 1 zinc and 1 selenium - once or sometime twice a day. I eat plenty of red meat so I think my iron levels are ok.
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Date: 18.02.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Sean, We have same problem with grandson, he would be on game 24/7 if we let him. Only problem with me is that sometimes when Im out I see things that in my mind I think I could climb up or jump off (that would be a site) My favourite game was set in Venice, where I love, and when I see Venice on tv I look and think to myself I have been on top of that building or jumped off that tower, so you see even with RA you can still have lots of adventures lol. Sorry back to the real world, I am really careful with my meds now, and make sure none of them clash with others, in beginning I was told it was okay to take them all at same time more or less in one go, which was wrong I think this is probably why my symptoms were not going and I was having lots of anaemic problems. My meds timetable starts at 5.30 I have to set my alarm. I don't know if I could actually fit in anywhere to take zinc, even my 11.00 slot and 2.30 are taken up! I will look into it more, I am going to read your links re nutrition it will help the xbox withdrawal symptoms!!!! Thankyou for being there and taking the time to post, I find people so helpful on here.
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Date: 31.03.2014
From: Sean
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
I found this earlier today and thought it was relevant to the discussion - 3 people sharing their thoughts and progress with Antibiotic Protocol on this very articulate blog - http://recoveringarthritics.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/three-recovering-arthritics.html?m=1 Then I read this in relation to AP in dentistry - "Low Dose Antibiotics
Recently there has been interest in the use of low dose antibiotics. The dose is so low the drug does not act to kill bacteria, but rather to change the way the body responds to infection." http://www.aspenperio.com/non-surgical/antibiotics-to-treat-periodontal-disease.php
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Date: 01.04.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
thanks Sean, I have just read the full article, very interesting to read the success some people had. I wish the medical people here in UK would just let this AP be tried, I noticed one of the studies done in Turkey mentioned clarithryomycin(sp?) and I have relooked at my diary and at the time I was on that I also wrote that my pains were easier and that after 3 days on it I could move better. No good wishing for AP here though, but it does look now as if other countries are maybe accepting that it could be bacteria that causes our bodies to go into overdrive. The lists of foods to avoid was also interesting I have already cut out citrus now I am trying to cut out sugar, its hard but the rewards might be worth it - who needs chocolate anyway:( Thanks for all the info Sean its appreciated. I hope you are well at the moment. I have been terrible last couple of days but I think its because either going back onto mtx tablets instead of injecting or reducing steroids down to 5mg a day. Today I took 10mg and feel bit better.
Julie
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Date: 02.04.2014
From: May
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi Julie, I think in time more doctors here will have to become more accepting that AP works. If it didn't, then why are the private clinics here that realise it can be successful for 60% to 70% of people with RA, so very very busy ?
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Date: 02.04.2014
From: Julie
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Hi May, can you imagine the cost of getting this treatment privately!!! Sadly not for me I only get basic state pension, cant claim any benefits, got no savings so I will just have to wait like thousands of others. I tell you something I have been thinking about, its adrenalin. Last week I had to go to dentist, not been for 9+ years and was terrified, really terrified of what he was going to say. That day I had no pain anywhere in my body, my husband commented that I walked up and down their stairs like a teenager. I am sure it was the adrenalin rush from being so scared. I go back in couple of weeks but not bothered about having my fillings repaired so don't suppose I will be able to compare.
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Date: 02.04.2014
From: May
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Subject: Re: Amoxicillin
Julie, if you go to the right clinic then the treatment is not that expensive. It works out at around £10 per week, that includes consultation fees and private prescriptions.
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