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Date: 03.01.2013
From: Emily

Subject: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I'm working with my mum to tackle her arthritis through natural means and have come across an amazing acupuncturist locally (Norwich) who specialises in arthritis. You may not be able to get to him but his website contains lots of information on the kind of diet that you should eat (I think it's the one under 'healing diet') to get rid of it and in his blog he recently posted an article on arthritis. Mum and I are really coming round to the idea (like Margaret Hills) that what you eat can heal your arthritis (and prevent it in the first place.

http://norwichacupuncture.com/acupuncture-blog/page/2/

http://norwichacupuncture.com/healing-diet-info/
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Date: 03.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Emily,

It is great that you are helping your mum but be careful.

I don't know what type of arthritis she has but you should know that even though diet may sometimes help symptoms, if she has RA, it doesn't stop the disease and she can still develop joint damage and damage to some organs. It is important to continue with the drugs.

All the best
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Date: 03.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Just had a look at the diet and should say that anyone taking Methotrexate should avoid all supplements, including vitamins, as they overload the liver and can make your blood results rise and cause liver damage. Not all doctors and nurses know this but mine does lol!

I did try a similar diet when I first got diagnosed, as did a friend of mine. I found it didn't help and was difficult to stick to. She felt better for a short while, gave up her drugs and then had a massive flare up 4 months later with the beginnings of joint damage and had to restart her drugs. Needless to say, she gave up the diet.

I'm sorry to throw cold water on your post Emily but arthritis is too severe a disease to mess about with. I hope your mum has osteoarthritis which, although very debilitating, isn't so damaging to overall health.
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Date: 03.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Emily

It is worth considering that many foods can trigger a reaction for some people - and it varies from person to person.

The diet looks good and eliminates a lot of the most common reactive foods for arthritis - but if one of your trigger food is one of the 'allowed' foods then diet might not work - so is is best to restrict to eliminate all most common allergic foods and then gradually introduce. List of common foods here -

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/4/6/392.pdf

Some people find it very difficult to stick to a diet even if it can help - if I eat any wheat then I get a 2 to 3 week flare.

I dont know as much about Rheumatoid but for AS - there are many people following diet changes and if you stop the inflammation and pain then the damage will also be similarly reduced.

Does your mother take medication at the moment - because as bsk says I am sure I have read that there can be contradictions with supplements and some meds can contradict to a diet approach due to the need to heal your gut.

PLEASE LET US KNOW HOW YOU GET ON - AS ANOTHER POSTER ONCE SAID ON HERE - IF PEOPLE GET BETTER THEN THEY STOP POSTING. It would be wonderful to hear if you get any success with this.

Best of Luck, Sean
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Date: 03.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Sean,

it's not true that if the pain and inflammation is reduced from diet alone the damage is similarly reduced - that is why they prescribe dmards and anti tnfs. Also, as you say, if you are not allergic to things like diary and gluten, it won't help at all. I'm all for supplementary treatments but people need to be extremely well informed and not just take stuff off the net.

Happy new Year by the way!
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Date: 07.01.2013
From: robbie

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Emely,
You are right. You get arthritis from the dirt (chemicals, colors, additives, preservatives) in our food. I got cured from arthritis by a book of Dr. Giraud Campbell, title Arthritis.
Of course if this doctor telling us that you can't eat any kind food that is made in a factory. If people hear that they can't drink coffee, sugar, pastry, alcohol, smoke, softdrinks, prepared meat, canned fruit, canned vegeatables, canned fish, cookies, chips, hamburgers, etc. etc. Well they say: I rather stay with my pain. It is a choice you have to make. There is no cure for arthritis. The only cure is the book from Dr. Campbell.
He wrote in his book: expect a miracle. And it was a miracle for me: my arthritis (swollen joints on finger and toe) was cured in SEVEN days. I followed this way of eating for several months. I never had arthritis again. Novadays I do eat normal "factory" food. As long as my body can manage the dirt in my food it is no problem. The moment this pain is coming again I know what to do. Thank you Dr. Giraud Campbell.
I wish you a lot of succes Emely and Mum.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Bsk

The Internet is dangerous if you follow blindly - but if you research things by cross referencing with other areas to validate what is "truth" and what is rubbish then you can become quite well informed.
I would guess that many of us that have researched our own arthritis know more than our GP's.

You asked me on another thread about my treatment (26 years ago) - I was a bit fuzzy with my answer but decided to look up to see if it was still going.

I visited Dr. J. Mansfield at the "Burghwood Clinic" in Banstead and see that it is still going strong. It says on their site today - (We find that about 75% of patients with rheumatoid arthritis are reacting to foods that are a part of their regular diet and this was confirmed by a clinical trial published in The Lancet on February 1st 1986 (see clinical trials). The website (http://www.burghwoodclinic.co.uk/treatments/arthritis.html) says -

"The foods involved vary a lot from patient to patient and can best be identified by an elimination diet. Blood tests for food sensitivity are grossly unreliable. Causes other than food sensitivity are chemical sensitivity, reactions to gut organisms such as candida and proteus, biological inhalant sensitivity and deficiencies of trace minerals, essential fatty acids and antioxidants. The factors involved have to be sorted out on an individual basis."

Interestingly a "silo" of the NHS in Epsom near to this clinic use some of the same treatments with an elimination diet approach (this only started when a very unwell 14 year old girl who was not doing well on drug therapies returned to the rheumatologist (Dr. Gail Darlington) a few months later in good health.

This has something in common with the "Roadback Foundation" that is treating some people with antibiotics to cover infections that may be present (for some). This website tells a story similar to your friends who tried a diet then got worse again (http://www.roadback.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/community.display/display_id/477.html)

This is backed up in some part by this research - where it cites bacteria "proteus mirabilis" as a cause for rheumatoid arthritis in some people (although chlamydia and other bacteria have also been seen to cause a reaction) -

http://cdn.intechweb.org/pdfs/19322.pdf

Why do rheumatlogists not know this stuff - I worked temporarily in local government a few years back and can see the "silo" approach to the way all services are run in our regions.

There are doctors trying to get this in to the mainstream by lobbying government - this is not "quack therapy" and it's not just about gluten and milk -

http://www.fhf.org.uk/files/index2.php?id=6&download=true

I want all of you to get the chance of the same treatment on the NHS - by educated and informed people. (Diet, Yeast /Candida, Infection, Enviromental allergens first - then if that doesn't work then use the drugs)
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I have Lupus/Ra. Years before i had symptoms, my bowel habits changed. I started to have bouts of diarrhea. It was the bread i was eating, i'd switched to wholemeal. I switched back to white bread and then eventually stopped eating gluten altogether. I'm quite sure there is a connection and that certain foods can make you worse.

I've looked all over the internet, and there is some good information out there and websites like Roadback.

I also take Low dose Naltrexone which has made a definate difference. Unfortunately you can only get it privately at the moment. Thousands of people in the UK with different autoimmune diseases take it.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Linda,

yes, it's true some people are gluten intolerant and if that is the case then you have to cut out gluten. If you aren't gluten intolerant you are wasting your tiI me trying to follow a gluten free diet. It's easy to get tested for it if you really think that is the problem.

Naltrexone for autoimmune disease has no scientific evidence to support it but am glad it works for you.

Sean, you haven't answered my point about underlying disease.

Personally, I am not going to follow treatment that hasn't been followed up by further clinical trials for the past 25 years. As anyone who has ever read 'Bad Science' knows, clinical trials can be badly skewed and are worthless in isolation. I do know that some foods trigger a flare (rhubarb being one) but these are pretty well known about. You can get joint damage even if you are symptom free with RA. It's really important to know that.

Rheumatologists do know about these things. Mine are involved in research but the reality is there is not enough evidence to support these theories. Some people think there is a conspiracy between doctors and drug companies which prevent other treatments being promoted. Frankly, I think that is insane.

Robbie, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is made up of chemicals.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I have been reading Robbie and Sean's post with interest. OA is a degenative disease and nothing repairs the damage, so how is this diet going to work for me or is it only certain arthritis it helps?
I have tried at my own cost lots of different supplements some encouraged by my Rhumy Dr and GP and they say nothing is proven. some it helps others it does nothing.Well I have stopped giving all these companies my money.
I agree with BSK everything is made of chemicals so where do we start with elimination?
This is not a criticism of your posts just interested. At the end of the day if you believe it works for you then great!!! I am always a little wary of people who protest that what they say is correct and get agitated at other peoples views.
Take Care
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

It's good to have a debate. Like Marlene, I've tired most of the complimentary therapies and haven't found them helpful, esp the diet.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I have been reading with interest the different views on diet/elimination etc. I believe to a certain extent that diet could be helpful for some of the inflammatory arthritis's but not a cure and to follow such a diet and eliminate most foods then re-introduce gradually would be very difficult, even organic foods today are not entirely organic, it is true that chemicals are everywhere, even in the air we breath.

I am not in disagreement with diets for r/a as i know certain foods can make me feel better/worse and when i haven't eaten for a while i actually start to feel a bit better but to maintain it would be very difficult and i don't think it would cure arthritis.

I therefore think that a good sensible diet with oily fish would help and perhaps even lessen the amount of painkillers we take but i would not take the chance of stopping all my medication as this could lead to deformities of the joints.

I believe that more research should be carried out on diets, it would be much easier to do while part of a study/in hospital to see what the effect would be but i would be unsure that diet alone, unless you have it mildly to be 100% effective.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

absolutely right it is good to have a debate. I agree Rhona oily fish has always been a very good supplement for joints. I take fish oil and I am not aware that it is doing anything, but I am sure it is oiling up the joints I also take vit c/D as I am lacking in both of these.
As for anything else I am not too sure. I make sure I eat fruit veggies Yougurts for the gut and meat. I do eat bread I prefer brown with the added seeds.
It is good to take on others thoughts and sometimes to try new things but I can't go along with diet alone will cure us.
Take Care
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

very wise words Rhona!
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Just a little message for Robbie. To say the only cure for arthritis is a book by Dr Campell is a ridiculous statement to make. It sounds like the pain you had in a finger and toe was perhaps GOUT and that usually goes away after a number of days anyway, although it can sometimes be controlled by diet. You cannot say that this Dr Campbell's book is going to cure all arthritis's.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I tried gluten free diet plus others shortly after I was diagnosed. Not only did it not help, it was incredibly hard to stick too and was making me miserable so I packed it in. I do avoid foods I know to cause flare ups but occasionally indulge - particularly when it is strawberries and I really know about it but decide it is worth the pain!

As to Robbie, if ONLY I just had pain in a finger and a toe!! Don't think I would have bothered to get that diagnosed lol! In fact, I didn't.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I don't think diet is a stand alone treatment for most people with arthritis. If relieves some of the symptoms and means less pain, then it is perhaps worth doing.

Marlene. Marguerite Patten OBE, wrote a cookbook for people with arthritis. I'm pretty sure i read that she had Osteoarthritis. I remember reading an article about her in the Mail some years ago.

My first thought about Robbie was that he might have had gout. I was once misdiagnosed and treated for gout. So i read up a lot about it. Gout is a form of arthritis that can be controlled by diet by avoiding certain foods that are high in purines. So why not avoid foods that can aggrivate other forms of arthritis.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Linda, I will google this book but to be honest, it tok so long to be diagnosed properly I think all the joints that are damaged are passed diets. I am looking at surgery and pain killing drugs not fun but I live my life to the fullest and as long as I continue to do this I am happy.
I think it may have been gout as well. If Robbie never has another day of Pain well that is absolutely great.
Take care.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I've been doing a bit of research about these books and what is not clear at all is whether they are talking about osteo or rheumatoid, or any other arthritis for that matter. Given these are quite different diseases, albeit with some things in common, I'm unclear as to why they would help all types of arthritis.
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

That is what I am trying to say. I know a good diet is what we should all have. Just had home made meat pie (not sure if that would be allowed).
OA is totally different to any other Arthritis as you say RA PA and AS have the immune factor and I guess and I am guessing that maybe some foods would not be good for you. What is confusing is why some people can eat some things and not others and why it helps some and not others.
So how can these diets be the cure as some proclaim??????
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Date: 08.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I know Marlene! It's a bit of a nightmare trying to make sense of it all. Like you, I try to eat a healthy diet.
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Date: 09.01.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Don't misunderstand me Marlene or bsk, i wouldn't dream of telling anyone what they should or should not eat. Whatever works for you. We are all different. I myself am interested in food, so i found what Sean had to say very interesting. It gives me some control over my arthritis.

My mother had RA and she also had Osteoarthritis. My late sister had Lupus. Both suffered terrible pain in their lives like some of the people that come on here. So i'm quite interested in alternative or complimentry therapies.
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Date: 09.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I didn't misunderstand you Linda :) I just didn't find the diet thing useful for myself but am fully aware that others do. I also get the control thing, but again, not for me. As you say, we are all different but I need something more than an old and isolated clinical trial to convince me.

My mother had terrible OA and she tried everything but to no avail. I research so much for her but nothing helped. I have RA so different again. Take care. xx
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Date: 09.01.2013
From: Colin

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Linda
Sorry about what happened to your sister , most of us hate doctors & hospitals

my sister has RA but very mild but dont take her medication (Nasid's) & seen her over xmas , her knee is playing up but still wont take anything & she will end up needing knee replacing just because she wont take a anti inflammatory drugs , pretty sick knowing those of us with severe RA got to take loads of drugs & still get the joint damage

as for these guys making claims about food treating arthritis , none has RA & just making claims that are not true , if anyone thinks this may help ask the experts , both Arthritis Care & National Rheumatoid Arthritis Society have free help lines , phone them up & ask them if there is any apart from the drugs that helps
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Date: 09.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

well said colin!!!!!
I didn't misunderstand Linda either each to there own. I just don't like it when people try to say diets are a cure.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

For those that are interested this is very interesting - you might need to use 'RealPlayer' to play the BBC4 Radio file. Interview with Gail Darlington (Rheumatologist at Epsom) from 2006.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme_20060528.shtml

Is the 85% improvement rate for 3,000 of Dr. Mansfields arthritis patients after a week of a strict elimination diet a hoax? RESEARCH AND SEE IF YOU THINK THIS DR. IS LEGITIMATE.

Removal of foods to which each individual is allergic is not a cure but they can help a lot of people and for a few lucky ones will remove the need for drugs or change the therapy required in 40% of RA sufferers - this is documented in a double blind peer reviewed study.

Colin - I dont have RA - I have AS. I am not cured but approx. 75% better than the worse I have been. I have gut issues still have I am sure account for the remaining pains and stiffness that I have - my next step is going to be 'Grapefruit Seed Extract' and 'Uva Ursi' to kill off some of the klebsiella in my gut. Boswellia did nothing for this bug.

Bsk - I think the fact that there is this successful practice in Epsom without a spreading of knowledge is Insane and although I have been on the floor in agony on many occassions (with my back and ribs) - if I knew as much as you and others do about your own RA pain then it would anger me if the success of this pactice was true.

Colin - Quite simply I dont trust Arthritis Care and Research. If they do not know about the links between gut issues, how diet can change gut ecology (75% of your immune system is made up of bugs in your gut!) and thus improve arthritis then it is shameful. I was banned from their forum (yes funny ;)) - for, I quote "giving people false hope". Read my posts they are still there. They have big drug company sponsorship.

I feel sad (and angry) that for many Arthritis sufferers that this is probably too late - but for newly diagnosed people it must be bought to the fore to give them a chance whether thats 25%, 40% or 75%. The Burghwood Clinic in Banstead has been going at least 25 years - imagine the sufferering and pain that could have been prevented if the NHS was more proactive and didnt let the drugs companies dictate all that it does.

GP's just give drugs or refer, most Rheumatologists know very little about gut ecology or diet.

So are we reacting to bugs in our gut and/or food molecules that 'leak' through our gut and then for a newly diagnosed sufferer (of any Arthritis not just RA) - they give us NSAID and other drugs that firstly make it more likely that these will 'leak' in to our body and can seriously affect the gut lining - or ultimately then switch off our immune systems so we dont create an attack on ourselves whilst attacking the bugs and foods lectins.

Consider the facts that some children develop arthritis - many shortly after the introduction of new foods. What is the best treatment for them? I am worried about my 10 year old as she is often complaining of a sore back and we are quite sure she reacts to cows milk. Both my children have peanut allergies as well. Imagine cooking in my house!

Yes - I am a bore on this but I am passionate in my mission to ensure that the debunking of this approach does not continue. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE READING THIS THAT WAS TREATED BY JOHN MANSFIELD? Good or bad?

This chaps story might be of interest to those with RA that wish to take this further and have the will power to stick to a strict diet -

http://jhackett_ra.tripod.com/story.html

Strength to you all - whatever you try!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Sean,

One of the first things I did when I got diagnosed was buy Gail Darlington's book 'Diet and Arthritis. There's a lot of good stuff in it and I followed her advice for a good while but there were two things that made it difficult for me. Firstly, it was tough to follow (think I've said this further up) and secondly, was the knowledge that even though diet can help with the symptoms of RA it doesn't cure it and can leave you with joint damage. A good friend of mine did the diet thing at the same time and was fine for about 6 months but her arthritis flared badly suddenly with the beginnings of joint damage and she had to start dmards. She was seeing a reputable dietician. Yes, your symptoms might improve but do they stay that way and does diet prevent joint damage and other organ damage. You've consistently chose not to address this point.

The final thing that decided me against the diet was that it didn't seem to have any benefit for me.

I completely agree there is recent research that RA might be linked to gut bacteria but, as far as I am aware, it is early days and they are not sure how that happens and how to stop it.
Am I right in thinking that with AS the thinking is to go on a low starch diet? So it could be that certain dietary changes work for AS but that is not a guarantee they will work for other arthritic conditions.

Interestingly, I trained as a nurse in the days where certain types of ulcers were thought to be caused by stress. Heliocobacter was unknown and of course, is entirely treatable by antibiotics. So I completely understand doctor's do not know many things about the body. However, it's not true this stuff isn't being researched and things aren't being trialled and I don't believe for one minute my doctors would hold back info that would help me. Personally, I think my condition arises out of being an artist who used cadmium paints in large quantities. RA is one result of cadmium poisoning.

I do think you underestimate the other posters on this site. I haven't been a passive patient just accepting everything my consultant says. I've bought and read the books but am either not convinced by the evidence or it hasn't suited me. I challenge my consultant and he is honest and frank with me about treatments.
I want more evidence and clinical trials as to what EXACTLY is going on and how to prevent pain and damage. I don't think there is enough at the moment.

It might be useful though, if you told us what diet you are on. Forgive me if you have already but can't recall seeing it.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

p.s. sorry about my typos above, it 5am!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi bsk,

I saw Dr. Mansfield (Burghwood Clinic) in 1986 did elimination diet for about 2 to 3 weeks. Noticable change in my 'comparatively minor' condition at the time. I only ate Cod, Swede, Yams, Brown Rice, Pears, Bananas, mineral water for about 2 weeks.

Since 1992 have never willingly eaten wheat or corn of any kind (including hidden glucose syrup and corn starch) - I also avoid most cows milk most of the time and avoid soy

Before 1992 - I had "much" more pain than I have now in my back, ribs, shoulder blades and shoulder rotator-cuff and could not drive long distances without my sternum locking in to a sore crunchy state. I was often limping with hip flares. I was always tired and unmotivated.

Since 1993 - My shoulder blade pain has eventually gone - lumpy sore crunchiness feelings in my middle back have gone and I never get rotator-cuff issues or plantar fasciitis that I also used to suffer from. I have lots more energy and motivation. Some pain and inflammation still occurs in my back and very rarely my hips - and I do NO STARCH for a few days to help this.

I think I am allergic to other foods (or I have a sub-clinical klebsiella infection) - so in some ways I am hypocritical trying to give you the hard sell on this. Although - if I was feeling worse or flared badly more often then I would do the elimination again. I also think that moderate stiffness and inflammation in my back although annoying is probably easier to live with than extreme knee / arms or finger pains.

You are dead right that it is hard to stick to - and I am sorry for sounding a bit pius sometimes on this. It is just that the "If it works for you" thing starts to grate after a while as I think that the more educated members of these forums can see that this could help others too and its not rubbish.

I found out that Gail Darlington gave training and presentations to Arthritis Care and Research a few years back - yet they still push the balanced diet view / food pyramid stuff.

My guess is that doctors are just too busy to retrain themselve to pick up on new ideas and edivence.

Here is the study published in the Lancet -

PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, BLIND STUDY OF DIETARY MANIPULATION THERAPY IN RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(86)90774-9/abstract

I will dig out what I have read on joint damage - as I am sure I have read that xrays have shown increase in joint space from previous xrays - from people that have followed this.

I dont want to judge anyones approach - I just want newly diagnosed people to stop being told that diet makes no difference - when it has been PROVEN to help - even if they stay on some drugs too.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Thanks for your response Sean and I will read the study - thanks for the link.

My consultants are actively engaged in research and are supposed to be the 'best in the country.' I don't get a brush off when I ask about these things but they do tell me where the research is and what the evidence is. Mine is actively very concerned when things are bad for me and will call me himself, which my GP was a bit gobsmacked at when I told him! GPs, it is true, are not specialists in arthritis and really don't know that much about the treatment for RA.

I'm not against a diet to support treatment but think it is not a cure. You say you will dig out what you have read on joint damage and I find that a bit patronising as you seem to be saying that all your information is accurate and mine isn't!

I agree with you about Arthritis Care. However, Arthritis Research UK and the NRAS are both very eminent organisations and are completely up on the latest research. The former funding it. What they don't know about RA isn't worth knowing in my view.

I understand to some degree about your evangelical view but you don't really want to listen to an opposing argument. Passion for a view isn't enough. I want solid evidence I'm afraid!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Bsk -

One thing I forgot as you asked about my diet.

I take Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese (for joint and ligaments), selenium + zinc (for heavy metal chelation) - on most days. Up to 3 time a day.

For me these knock back any flares that I do get - but I dont take if I am doing NO STARCH as they dont go well on an unlined stomach.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Must cost you a bit!

I had a look at Lancet summary but couldn't get into article itself as paid for viewing. Summary not enough to convince me. Sorry.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Sean I use the term what works for you is great and I can assure you I have a very high education thank you very much!!!
When I use this term it is only to say each to there own and what works for one does not work for others!!!!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

well said Marlene!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Bsk,

I do not think that yourself finding a diet hard to stick to or having a friend try an unspecified diet that stopped working ater a while is an opposing argument against the fact that this is an embedded practice in "part" of the NHS that has helped many people - if Dr.Darlington gave this study to the medical world in 1986 and then carries on using the approach in her practice for 20 + years this should be evidence enough for most. Supported by the pay-for view paper that I wont be spending $31.50 to view.

I don't see an opossing argument - you seem to agree that a food (any food) can cause arthritis to be worse than it would otherwise be (such as your Stawberries).

Trials cost upwards of 100,000 to run - who is going to fund a trial that will not pay back.

Marlene - I wasnt thinking of your posts when I wrote that at 1.00 am. yesterday. There is no 'one' diet so I am not saying that something works for me would work for anyone else - but the evidence is that if people are reacting to foods that it is likely to be wheat, corn and a number of others are often high on the list.

Did you manage to listen to the BBC4 radio show - the lady who had RA that was first interviewed was reacting to olive oil!
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I didn't say it was an opposing argument Sean but you yet have to come back on the joint damage angle. That is my main concern. I don't dispute that some food cause things to worsen but I do know what those things are. Wheat intolerance is dead easy to get checked and there is no advantage to cutting it out if you are not intolerant to it.

I don't think the 'evidence' of one doctor who published a study, which you don't seem to have read in full, and still practices her approach is any better 'evidence' than my anecdotal one.

Why do you say a 100,000 trial wouldn't pay back? If people stopped their ant tnfs because of the diet the NHS would get their money back from 10 patients a year. I hardly think they wouldn't have spotted that opportunity if it was a viable one.

I really don't want to discuss this any further as we are going round in circles. I'm pleased for you that you have found benefit in diet but I didn't. That's all I need to know.
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Date: 10.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I am afraid I feel exactly the same.
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Well Sean, I picked up Gail Darlington's book for a read last night There are several key issues .

Firstly, she says the success rate of her treatment is 36% (though some say 5%) and clearly states it doesn't work for the rest, which fits in with what I know. Secondly, she admits it is very hard to stick too. Thirdly, she tells people to continue their medical treatment until they are in complete remission because of the joint damage with RA is so severe (there, I've answered my own question.) However, further down in the text she tells patients to come off all their meds due to the starch etc in the pills when doing the elimination diet. Fourthly, she is referring to RA primarily in her book though she does have some suggestions for other arthritic conditions and some very useful tips for all arthritis patients. For AS she says dietary improvements haven't been scientifically proven though that may have changed since she wrote it.

The elimination diet is not recommended for Osteoarthritis - so you were right Marlene!

As I said before, she has some very good advice for all arthritis patients. She says the elimination diet is worth doing in case you are one of the lucky few but also advises people with other underlying conditions not to start it.

I think it is so important to tell all sides. You can't blindly tell everyone they have food intolerances and should change their without understanding that people have different conditions and other complications. It could be very dangerous and it is irresponsible. It's also not true that it will necessarily help you or even cure you. At the least it will do nothing, for some it will improve some symptoms and others maybe it will help more. However, there is no mention of spontaneous remission which can also happen,apart from in the trials.

I'm glad you made me read this book again Sean as there are some things I will think about changing but they are minor tweaks. However, a lot of what you say is over simplification and the hard sell approach is more likely to put more people off than get them to engage with making changes.

As Marlene succinctly put it before 'what works for one doesn't work for another.'
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Perhaps the reason that people react to Wheat and dairy, is that it is something we eat every day. Also wheat is indigestable and not just for people who are celiac. 50% of the worlds population cannot tolerate dairy. My old neighbour of thirty years who was Chinese, told me that milk made her feel sick. She would buy milk for her husband who was English, but would not touch it herself. Incidently she was very healthy.

Whatever. I have already said, i don't think that diet is a stand alone treatment for most people with arthritis. There is more to it than that. But i do not believe people who have changed their diet and have gone into remission are liars.

I know that a low starch diet is beneficial for AS. I know it was devised by Professor Alan Ebringer. I would certainly believe him before anyone else.
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Linda, I don't think people who have changed their diet and have gone into remission are liars. I think they have gone into remission.
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Linda,

I am sure some people do go into remission with or without diet but what i would like people to remember is that osteoporosis is more common in people with arthritis and often the best source of calcium is from dairy products.

It is very confusing for people, we hear all the time about what foods we should and should not eat for our health and then some people may even feel guilty that their diet has contributed towards their arthritis. As i said in a previous post, i think people should eat a healthy diet and some people may feel that they benefit from eliminating foods but at the end of the day we all suffer enough without depriving ourselves of food that we enjoy and that can also be beneficial to our health. It is helpful to know that diet or diet changes can sometimes improve things.

It has been interesting reading everyones views on this and i am sure people can decide for themselves if they wish to try it.

Good luck to you all, whatever you decide.
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Rhona

I don't want to add confusion but do not underestimate the sales pitch of the dairy and other food industries. (Yes this might be seen as more paranoia and conspiracy theory from me!)

It is a fact that countries with the lowest levels of osteoporosis eat very little dairy. I remember reading in many places that there is more absorbable calcium in broccoli / kale than milk. What I have read is that the protein profile in milk means that it is somewhat calcium neutral.

Countries with the highest protein intake have more osteoporosis and hip fractures in the elderly.

Bones will give off calcium because of the heavy protein content in dairy and some meats.

http://www.japanese-food-for-health.com/

http://www.macrobiotics.nl/library/AT1_preventingBoneLoss.html

There is also concern about the ratio between calcium and magnesium (I take magnesium at 2 x the ratio to calcium) -

http://milk.elehost.com/html/osteoporosis.html

I personally dont believe that cows milk is an essential part of human nutrition. My brother lives in Denmark they all eat loads of cheese and drink lots of milk and eat salami and pt like its going out of fashion. Denmark and other Scandinavian countries are high on the osteoporosis list due this protein intake and lack of sunshine (vitamin D).

You will find many resources from health journals and the milk industry that contradict my view.
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Date: 11.01.2013
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Sean,

You are right that we can get calcium from other foods but the point i am trying to make is that stopping all dairy products won't neccessarily help arthritis and it's not everyone that likes kale and broccoli as their main source of calcium.

Having milk in cereal or porridge for breakfast is convienent and enjoyable and unless we know it doesn't agree with us then i see no point in stopping it.

You do seem very well read but as others have said before, if it helps you then great and as the saying goes, one man's meat is another man's poison.
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Date: 12.01.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Rhona, I thought you made a very good point about some people feeling guilty about their diet. I was put under quite a lot of pressure by friends and family to go on some kind of elimination diet when I first got ill - this before my diagnosis was even confirmed! I know they meant well and just wanted to see me out of pain but things were much more complex than they realised. I did try a diet but it made me miserable and stressed and think it contributed to making the arthritis worse! I also have other circumstances that needed to be taken into account. Things are not always as simple or straightforward as they seem.

You can't bully people into making changes they don't believe in and aren't necessarily even proven and I wish people would stop trying!
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Date: 12.01.2013
From: rhona

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Thanks bsk. We all know our own bodies better than anyone and as you say things are not always simple or straightforward. Everyone is different, even with the same disease, as we know that some treatments work for some and not others so it stands to reason that not everyone will be helped by diet.

I had someone tell me that tai chi has cured people with arthritis and if i wanted to help myself i should do it.

It is good to get advice and tips from people but not good when people just see there way as the right way, especially when it's from people that don't have the disease.
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Date: 12.01.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Your comments are well written BSK and Rhona.
I have been following this thread with interest.
I am with both of you we know how to deal with our own bodies better than than anyone else. I know when I should rest, when I need a painkiller, or just a hot water bottle.
I also am well read on my own type of Arthritis. I also have some insight of RA PA and AS this I have learned first hand from the Ladies and Gents on this sight. No better way to learn but from those that live the problems each day.
I have no issue with some one making a suggestion, but to try to enforce what they believe is a little hard to swallow.
Being well read is admirable but at the same time should we believe everything we read???
My Motto seeing is believing.
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Date: 18.01.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

The only two occaisons i've had seafood, i've been violently sick. It has given me a life long aversion to seafood.

I will certainly check out Dr Gail Darlington Sean.
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Date: 29.01.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I saw this on another forum and thought it was relevant to the discussion -

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/43/11/1429.full

After identifying subjects with previously unknown food sensitivities they studied the exclusion of those foods - and the reduction in TNF ("Evidence supports the correlation of levels of disease activity in RA and the progression of joint damage with levels of TNF-α")

"The inhibition of TNF-α and IL-1 appears to be a novel complementary strategy for the treatment of RA at present [32]. In this study, we demonstrated that TNF-α and IL-1β levels are affected by diet challenges performed with allergenic foods."

Food for thought?
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

For anyone interested. I have been reading a lot of other articles and studies on autoimmune disease and underlying causes - not just diet but what precedes this.

Really not bullying - just think there might be someone else out there who would like to take a look!

There is a lot of recent studies out there in relation to a protein made by us in our gut called "ZONULIN" - this regulates how permeable our guts are to food proteins and any bacteria that are present.

There are two studies that could be interesting for arthritis sufferers -

1 - Gliadin (the protein in wheat) now believed to open the gut to the immune system for celiacs AND non celiacs

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16635908

2 - Explaination of zonulin (see section "IV" Intestinal Permeability and Disease)

http://physrev.physiology.org/content/91/1/151.long

If you look at the number of diseases linked to gut permeability and resulting reactions -

http://www.townsendletter.com/June2012/autoimmune0612.html

Then look at the role of Proteus in RA (similar to the role Klebsiella has in AS)

http://www.kickas.org/medical/radocs/S1740252206000059.pdf

So in theory if you can reduce the bad bacteria in the gut, stop ingesting gliadin (so prevent opening the gut tight junctions too wide) then remove the ingestion of the food that some people will have become allergic to as a result of the intestinal permeability then symptoms should be reduced.

And it's not just us it's our animals too -

http://dogtorj.com/what-is-food-intolerance/gluten-intolerance/

Irish setters are prone to certain health conditions. These include hip dysplasia (a malformed ball and socket in the hip joint), bloat, epilepsy, skin allergies, eye problems, progressive retinal atrophy (progressive damage to the retina) and hypothyroidism (a condition that causes the body to slow down).

For the irish setter - this susceptibility is all from gluten intolerence!
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: suz

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Very Interesting Sean, I do agree with you on this and diet plays hugh role in auto immune diseases.

My R.A definitely gets worser when I had something i can't digest quick enough by my gut.

Thanks
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: Colin

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

suz

the real question is have you ever found something food wise that makes it better , & the answer is no , we all know some foods make our RA worse but everyone is differnet & its pretty easy to find out which foods do it

lol find it realy funny Sean dont like Arthritis Care / Arthritis Research UK & National Rheumatoid Arthritis Society just because they dont agree with him & the Quacks promoting the lies

there is so much crap publish in the press & online & learnt to not trust any of it unless its from the NHS or the above arthritis sites
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: Suz

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Colin sometimes if someone is on a low alkaline diet it calms the inflammation and too much processed foods which are acidic aggravate the inflammation in the tissues where autoimmune is concerened.

The Food isn't the root cause of R.A but our digetive system maybe out of balance and these foods may make things worse for some people. Thats why we need the immune suppressing drugs to control inflammation caused by dysfunctional immune system.

How the immune system dysfunctions is something that needs much more research by professionals, as patients we can only mention it to our consultants about how some foods can cause inflammtion worse.

Hope you can understand my view.
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Thanks Suz - there is so much good research out there - for example temporary fasting to stop a flare up makes a lot of sense if the above research is true.

Colin - I don't really know how to respond to that last post - except there is a contradiction that you say you are effected by foods and KNOW which ones they are -most Rheumatlogists and most of the NHS (and the pharma sponsored huge forums) say diet plays little or no role! Yet you say it's pretty easy - your ahead of me then because the only foods I am sure of that inflame ME for weeks are wheat and corn - I'm too lazy to find out which other foods might (I suspect beef, eggs and red wine) be contributing to my background disease.
I'm not cured but I am better than i was and I am not quoting quacks and its not crap - I see a lot of crap out there but believe that I know enough about this stuff to share non crap. I would rather keep things civil and friendly but I was sharing your reply with my family and just find these sort of impolite responses puzzling - I know I am one of the lucky ones and you seem to think I am here to be unhelpful or gloat. Even it it only helps 5% (although research says at least 20%).

There is no one food that I have ever stated would make arthritis better and there is no one diet for anyone - but I will be watching the research carefully to see what other foods affect gut permeability - because it will be 5, 10, 15 years until this research feeds through - and i suspect it won't be from arthritis research it will more likely be via Celiac Research and Gastroenterology.

If you are not interested or have tried and it did not work for you then this thread is probably not for you - but I have seen enough in friends and relatives to know that some diagnosed people can be helped.

Nearly all disease begins in the gut, Allessio Fasano
Published on May 21st, 2012
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Date: 01.02.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Sean, I think people find your posts a little offensive.You are obviously well read and you do try to pooh hooh NHS and where would we all be without it?? You are very forceful with your posts. Its what you believe or nothing. If you find the replies are not what you want to hear maybe you should try posting about other things apart from dieting. I think most of us got what you were saying in the begining.
Why you disrespect Arthritis Research is beyond me that is like suggesting Cancer Research doesn't know what it is talking about.
Sean I know what foods are not good for me like most on this forum and so we avoid them like you.
It seems like you are trying to force your beliefs on all of us and like Colin I feel quiet frankly it is a over the top, as I say try to join in posts about different subjects.
Take Care
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Marlene

If is wasn't for the take care at the end then I think I would have been offended - plus I can see from the great support you give to others that you are well meaning.

I posted new stuff that I had not posted before on to a diet thread.

You and a couple of others on this thread are obviously not interested in this stuff - so why keep posting on how it doesn't help you. The constant disagreement with the gluten free approach but there is so much evidence that it is not just celiacs that are affected - and it cannot be easily tested for as Bsk stated.
I cannot post on how good Methodrexate is or that I didn't get side effects - but could go in to detail on how medicine "helped" my fathers arthritis - two hip replacements and a fused spine / stomach ulcers / amenia - but that wouldn't be very supportive. I can only support what I know.

If you read it through I was being pressed for proof by Bsk about joint damage - when all I really originally wanted to do was support Emily's post. Then at the end a few of you then started exchanging congratulatory "well that told that bully to go away" "well said" "Me too!" type posts - it is not me that is offensive and I never said that this will work for everyone.

It is you that are saying "It didn't work for me or is irrelevant to me so don't bother posting on here" - if everyone feels this way then I'll just PO and go away!

It is just that a few of you seem to take things personally as if I am telling you what you individually need to do. No, I am not doing this. It's just information - please ignore it if you want.

Incidentally Bsk said that Dr. Darlington did not recommend elimination diet for osteoarthritis (which on page 118 of her book describes when it should be worth trying) - however Dr. John Mansfield does mention it as a therapy (he was the Doctor that gave direction to Dr. L G Darlington - he says 50% osteoarthritis have an improvement - as opposed to 75% for Rheumatoid)

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=2851

As for remission for no reason - there is a quote that Gail Darlington gave to her doubting colleagues on her trial published in the Lancet -

"To suggest that these patients happened to go in to spontaneous and sustained remission all at the same time just after they started their elimination diet is stretching coincidence to incredulity"

Note it was arthritiscareandresearch.org website not arthritis research itself that I have issues with.

I am going to do the full elimination diet as I first did 26 years ago - in the next few months to see what other foods are causing my problems (my money's on eggs) as I am planning to do more running this year.
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Sean,

I am trying to engage with what you write and read most of the research you post. The problem I find is that if I query anything you just shoot me down.

I've got the Gail Darlington book. It was one of the first ones I bought when I got ill. I'm sure the improvement rates aren't as high as you state but don't shoot me down if I'm wrong. Also, she is clear that you should stay on the drugs until you are in remission. Which is kind of what the main stream doctors say. She does say some contradictory things in her book, the OA thing being one of them. She also clearly says diet isn't for everyone.

I am NOT saying diet isn't important, or even crucial, but I AM saying I want better evidence before I start on such a punitive one. I did try a gluten free one but it was to no benefit. As I said before, my belief is my RA came from using cadmium paints. Not sure how a diet would help there.

I did a fair amount of reading about the leaky gut idea but couldn't find any research from organisations that I trust that backed it up. There are a lot of alternative type organisations that believe it but not one mainstream (NHS, Arthritis Research) organisation that I found. I completely agree with both Marlene and Colin's points about your negativity about them. I'm not a fan of Arthritis Care but have an enormous amount of respect for Arthritis Research.

You may well be right about all of this but maybe not. I am about to be transferred to a consultant who is 'at the cutting edge of research' and will talk to her. I am more inclined to listen to someone who has studied the subject for years rather than someone who lifts selective articles from the internet. I don't even know if you have any qualifications in this area.

You have every right to post on here but don't expect everyone to be grateful to you or even want to engage. You get very upset with any disagreement and it comes over as a bit desperate at times. Why DO you get so upset if people disagree with you? Is it because you have to believe your problems come from food and you can cure it? The need for control over your condition can be a very powerful one but lots of people take a less proactive role and they have every right to do so.

There used to be a lot of debate over food issues and cancer. In the 80's, when I was in the States, there was a massive culture of blaming the cancer patient for their condition because of stress - it was almost to the point of 'you caused your own illness because you didn't go on some extreme diet and mediate all day. Then came the responsibility for 'fighting' the disease. If you didn't drink gallons of freshly squeezed carrot juice every day and pump yourself full of vitamins, you were seen as complicit in the progress of your disease. We all know that is rubbish now. Yes, healthy diet can help prevent disease, we all know that, but there is little evidence that it can cure your cancer, in fact people have died pursuing extreme diets.

I feel very strongly that individuals can choose their own path in treating their illness. What suits one doesn't necessarily suit another.
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Sean I am just trying to tell you as bsk said you come over as agreesive and if you are offended by this I am sure many of us could become offended by you attitude. Good on you if you are going to approach food elimination. Can I ask if you truly believe all this why are you not following this to the letter. If my beliefs were as strong as yours I would definately be practising what I am preaching. This is what I cannot understand about your posts!!!
I will listen and take on board all suggestions on this forum as I suffer pain every single day.
How can I take all this seriously when you don't practice the methods yourself??
This is debate material definately and try not to take it to personally.
Take care and have a good day ( yes I truly mean that)
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Bsk - I think you should read this thread from the start and see who is shooting who down.

Emily wanted support! You shot down my support as you nearly always do when anyone asks about diet - I chose my words carefully.You tell people that its easy to be tested for gluten intolerance and there's no point trying unless you are tested - it is not easy and the current view is that elimination is the only true test - even ELISA blood tests are doubted. (Celiac is testable - intolerance is not)

Marlene - new food sensitivities can develop over time. I have practised this for 20 years. I just want to get even more well. I have eradicated the hip pain (prevented joint damage like my father had), shoulder pain and plantar fasciitis with what I do do - but I need to work on my neck and central back which I can see goes up and down on different weeks / days. FOR ME - I am convinced there is another food - because if my immune system didnt like my spine then it would be attacking me ALL the time.

I see the great support that you both give to other pain sufferers and this forum - the web is a big place and I have spent the last 6 months contributing to threads on American Spondylitis Association official diet and alternatives thread - it's worth a look as it not just me - I'm low key compared to some of those guys!
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

People do visit this forum for support and information. Some need support and some wish to know about drugs they've been prescribed and others want to know about diets to tackle arthritis, which is what this thread is about.

I think the NHS is brilliant. They saved my husbands life when he was rushed to hostpital with a perforated stomach ulcer. However, when it comes to autoimmune disease, all they can really do for you is prescibe drugs which treat the symptoms and not the cause and never quite leave you pain free. If diet helps then it is certainly worth knowing.

I'm also more inclined to listen to doctors who have researched autoimmune diseases, and some of those doctors have written some very good books. Mainstream medicine isn't set in stone and we do have a right to make an informed choice about treatments.
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Sean,

I've re-read my posts and don't think I've 'shot down' your support for Emily. But I have provided another side of the argument which you don't seem to like very much.

Maybe it is not easy to get a gluten test (though I have several friends who have done so) but even Gail Darlington thinks the elimination diet is hard and not for everyone. I don't dispute people have gluten and dairy intolerance and other allergies as well.

Once again,my main concern is the potential for joint damage in spite of improvement of symptoms. You've never addressed this issue.

Linda, Sean has given you all the info, have you read the book yet? I suggest you try the elimination diet.
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Not yet bsk, but i will get round to it. I read lots of books.

Correct me if i'm wrong bsk, but isn't it inflammation that damages your joints. So anything that dampens down the inflammation is a good thing.

All due respect to my mother who had RA. She thought their was a pill for everything. She took all the drugs she was prescibed and never questioned her treatment or her doctor, but it did not stop her joints from becoming terribly deformed.
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: Colin W

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

hi Linda

dont know when your mother started with RA , I have had it since 1996 & maybe sometime before , when I used to go to hospital almost everyone that had RA a long time had hand deformity (ulnar drift), its one thing you dont see now & the main reason for that is Methetrexate , some of us still have some deformities & require several opperations but the people that developed RA in the last 10 years have a lot better outlook

there is loads you can do that works along side the drugs , hydrotherapy , Mindfulness , Tens are just some , as bsk said try the elimination diet & if it works for you good , it wont take to long to find out but the chances are any food that affects you wont be the same as the next person

nowadays people with RA dont have to suffer deformities , the drugs are not always easy to take & that is why loads end up on the forums but they wont need to end up on the surgeon table

there is another Colin posting with PA so will post as Colin W again
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Date: 02.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Linda,

The problem, as I understand it, is that even if you dampen down the symptoms with diet, you can suffer joint damage if you are not on dmards and/anti tnfs. The whole point of these drugs, as Colin says, is to prevent deformities. They protect your joints but also protect your heart and lungs as these organs are prone to damage from RA too.

I don't know your mother's circumstances butC is right, treatment has moved on enormously in the past few years. I know people in their 80's who have been given anti tnfs and the improvement is phenomenal. I also know three people who went down the diet route, thought they were cured and suffered damage and bad flares. I realise this is anecdotal but it backs up what is known.

Best of luck with the diet. I hope it works for you.
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Date: 03.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I found this really fascinating thread - whilst searching for "zonulin tnf" on google. I'm interested in what TNF is and what it does - and want to put some questions out there

Does TNF do any good in the body? Do TNF blockers stop the body from killing potentially bad cells?

http://www.celiac.com/gluten-free/topic/49176-celiac-the-autoimmune-connection/

Does not producing as much TNF and CRP count as a treatment?

Does anyone know of any studies as to whether prevention of inflammation / pain by stopping TNF production (through diet change or other means) does really still mean that you will get joint damage?

Do celiac disease sufferers (which affects organs) have to take TNF blockers to stop their organs being attacked - even if they stop eating gluten?

If a % of people can reduce TNF by diet - then would this change their medication and risk of side effects?

Would the diet responders (72%) in this study need the same drug treatments if they kept on the same strict regime?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15304675/

For me these are all important questions I would ask if my little daughter or teenage son got arthritis and needed treatment
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Date: 03.02.2013
From: Colin W

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

hi Sean

thankyou for the link in Turkey , it says :

"METHODS: Twenty patients with a positive SPT response for food extracts and 20 with a negative SPT response were enrolled. None of the patients had active disease."

it dont make sence using people with no active RA ,

the study by British Society for Rheumatology , Rheumatoid Arthritis Biologics Register have recruited over 20,000 participants on to the study, most of us on here know how these drugs can change our life in a very positive way even though we have problems with them & have to change onto a differnt drug at some point , & the reason a lot of us turn to the forums

those of us that finds food make our arthritis worse will find out without an elimination diet , it dont take much but RA need to be controled & thats why we got to have the drugs
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Date: 03.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Strict diet or drugs - hmmm! Both have their pros and cons. I've read all the links and more besides. Still not sure about the joint damage question. Hypothesis not enough. Need double blind trials with long term outcomes to convince me on the joint damage question. Not worth the risk.

In any case, having tried a gluten free diet that didn't help and with all the difficulties it entailed, not for me at this point in time.
But I never say never.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Hi Colin

Yes - they were not in an active RA at the beginning of the study - which is sort of the point (the trial reignited their arthritis after exclusion then reintroduction) the link was just a summary - the full study says -

13 of 18 patients in the PPG experienced disease exacerbation after intake of allergenic foods. Interestingly, this flare did not settle during the 12 days of observation in the re-elimination phase in 12 of 13 patients.

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/content/43/11/1429.full

My main point was to discuss TNF reduction - as I keep reading that it is this that controls the process that damages joints and organs.

You are right they need larger studies to be sure - that's a huge study you have mentioned and I have no doubt will prove positive as lots of people do get relief from their drug therapy.

Who will pay for a larger study - the government perhaps?

You are right to advise that it would not take long to find out if foods are affecting your pain - most stuff I have read is 7 to 10 days. Which is tougher than it sounds! Gradual re-introduction though can take many weeks and needs a saint like commitment - so I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do this - especially as there are no guarantees.

I guess all I can hope for is that some people (not those that know which foods affect them) that have previously been told by their doctors (like mine) that diet makes little or no difference - get some chance of a bit less pain - because even if they have to stay on drugs could be better.

Sorry to be dogmatic and persistent but until the big players and mainstream admit that it at least plays a role I will continue to be suspicious of the literature they do put out there - because at the moment I am just viewed as someone that is following some mad quack advice. I shouldn't be encouraging people to try diets - they should - maybe they are scared of something. AC&R recommend a high starch, grain based diet!
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Bsk - where have I said its one or the other?

This is not a shoot down - but Please don't misquote because I agree that drugs work and are useful.

You have made me think hard about the drug questions and
I have exchanged many forum messages on other sites and there was a lady that knew that knew they reacted to milk ever since they were a child but said "but I'm on immunosuppressants so I can drink it now" - latest posts she says that they are doubled over like a little old lady.

The only clinical assessment is failed medication - so lets try the next drug in line or a higher dosage. I am not saying excluding milk or other foods would stop this case - but quite frankly you are still pushing don't bother with diet - and never ever in any case come off your medication.

How about a strict diet and different or less drugs. I believe that future breakthroughs in celiac treatment will impact all autoimmune diseases - because they are looking for cause of disease and not a sledgehammer.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: Linda

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I'm not anti drugs bsk. I've been taking hydroxychloroquine, one of the safest drugs, for years with no bad side affects. High dose prednisolone was a life saver for me when i needed it. I've said no to a couple of drugs because i found the side affects to be unacceptable.

We are sometimes caught between a rock and a hard place with drugs. As my GP recently said to me, we're not a dictatorship, it's your choice.

I'm still taking 5mg of prednisolone which i don't want to take forever. If i can use other methods such as diet to help with pain and inflammation, hopefully i can use less drugs.

It's not so much the ones i'm taking at the moment, it's the ones that my rheumatologist hinted at should the drugs i'm taking now fail.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Sean, I was posing a question to myself in my last post. Read it again. I said I wouldn't diet at this point in time but never say never. Hope you aren't as selective in your internet reading as you are of my posts.

As for anecdotal evidence from a forum. Here's some from a friend. RA since 17, vegan gluten free diet all her life, deformed hands and feet, many flares. On drugs recently,massive improvement. Unfortunately, hands and feet still deformed. Another friend, diagnosed seronegative at birth of child. Off to a nutritionist, exclusion diet and fine for a year but gets worse and worse, beginnings of joint damage, onto the drugs. Feels better. Still avoids gluten which helps a bit but not significantly.

I AM NOT saying do not try the diet and I AM NOT saying don't come of the medication. I am saying that, at this point in time, there haven't been enough trials to convince me about the long term damage question.

I - that is me, not you, not Linda, am not able to do the exclusion diet. I, that is me, not you, not Linda, tried the gluten free diet and it didn't work for ME.

Get this through your blinkered point of view. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone feels the same way as you and reads the data as you do. You seem to be on a mission but I think you would be better off lobbying the government to spend money on trials than trying to convince one or two people on here of your beliefs.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Well said Bsk
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Have you ever seen "Horton Hears a Who"

"Me too!"

Said the baby kangaroo

and it is me that is offensive!
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Thank you Marlene.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: bsk

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Sean, no-one has been ridiculing you, please have some respect for the posters on here.
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Date: 04.02.2013
From: Sean

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

Marlene - I apologise for my last post.

As I said previously - I can see the great support you give so many people.
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Date: 05.02.2013
From: marlene

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I accept your apology Sean. I am only trying to suggest you get involved with some of the other posts on here and get to know us all a bit better.
But once again thankyou for your apology.
Take Care it is freezing to-day make sure you stay warm.
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Date: 03.03.2013
From: lyuzita

Subject: Re: Acupuncture and diet to tackle Arthritis

I can hepl tray my method
http://sheringhamski.weebly.com/
http://www.facebook.com/matushka.zemlja
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